tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post4150671231068422841..comments2023-09-21T03:28:35.308-05:00Comments on Full Metal Attorney: Metal and Christianity, Part 2Full Metal Attorneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-14111466870773890162011-11-17T08:31:56.043-06:002011-11-17T08:31:56.043-06:00While we're on the subject of ad hominem attac...While we're on the subject of <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (the last argument addressed above illustrates the fallacy nicely, so it's sad how often it comes up) the guy who wrote that article exhibits the problem that most people have with atheists--that air of superiority. Atheists like to accuse the religious (especially Christians) of believing themselves superior, but it's quite the Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-49342795721464815392011-11-17T08:06:16.901-06:002011-11-17T08:06:16.901-06:00That critique is so deeply flawed as to border on ...That critique is so deeply flawed as to border on the ridiculous. His basic thread is a problem with a morality that is unyielding, and does not permit situational ethics. But of course morality is situational--that hardly needs any exposition, because reality is situational. The situational ethics broached by the comparison of genocide to genuine politeness doesn't even conflict with Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-29084244241140099432011-11-16T18:50:20.087-06:002011-11-16T18:50:20.087-06:00this guy put together an elegant/well-composed cri...<a href="http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=assertions" rel="nofollow">this guy</a> put together an elegant/well-composed critique of <i>Mere Christianity</i>, which I think is the source of some of conceptual/semantic differences. at the very least it's a decent summary of why I find that book's premises faulty (and maybe a better view of what's in my head? hopefully).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-75068312129557584802011-10-26T11:55:33.594-05:002011-10-26T11:55:33.594-05:00How can you, in one breath, say that you don't...How can you, in one breath, say that you don't believe in the concept of salvation, and then in the next breath, dispute the criteria for salvation? That's ridiculous. There is no air of superiority about it, because nobody <i>deserves</i> salvation. No one has <i>earned</i> it.<br /><br />There is quite a bit of evidence for God, found in reason, human experience, and history. For Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-87956479257731810872011-10-26T10:22:00.499-05:002011-10-26T10:22:00.499-05:00not really surprised to see that this thread kept ...not really surprised to see that this thread kept going. I'm totally with THKD here. FMA, you say you understand the atheist point of view and that it is we "others" who do not understand you. That is untrue. I do understand your perspective and I vehemently disagree with it; I do not believe in the supernatural (as there is no evidence to support such a notion in the history of thealex chttp://avianarchitext.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-39082653214752061162011-10-26T09:28:24.576-05:002011-10-26T09:28:24.576-05:00Fair enough. I guess I don't see what's so...Fair enough. I guess I don't see what's so difficult about understanding my points, as I can perfectly well understand what any atheist has ever told me. Their explanations just seem incomplete, misguided, simplistic, and stunted by misunderstandings created by the limitations of/mental shortcuts encouraged by human language. To be fair, such shortcomings are usually found in Christian Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-10057836855204837652011-10-26T08:44:30.005-05:002011-10-26T08:44:30.005-05:00Alright man, at this point I''d say we'...Alright man, at this point I''d say we're going to have to agree to disagree. To be perfectly blunt, I truly am incapable of comprehending or even attempting to see things from the point of view of your beliefs and world view, it simply isn't in my programming, which probably explains all the "misunderstanding" that's going on here. That said, I think it would be That's How Kids Diehttp://thatshowkidsdie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-24025558899297613762011-10-25T21:59:56.546-05:002011-10-25T21:59:56.546-05:00It's amazing how profoundly you misunderstood ...It's amazing how profoundly you misunderstood me. I get the impression it's not an intentional mischaracterization, but there's a very fundamental issue that's causing the confusion. What's painfully obvious is that you have made no effort to see things from my point of view, or you have rendered yourself nearly incapable of doing so. I mentioned I expected obstinance. I hadn&Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-77446919494035613032011-10-25T17:30:49.820-05:002011-10-25T17:30:49.820-05:00So let me see if I've got this straight. The r...So let me see if I've got this straight. The racist, ignorant, misguided Christian who ties a black man to the bumper of his pickup truck and drags him for 20 miles is ok and has his heart in the right place. But me, a non-christian who respects his fellow man, is a contributing member of society, helped take care of his invalid grandfather, etc, is somehow "evil" or better yet, &That's How Kids Diehttp://thatshowkidsdie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-3636194099288763632011-10-25T14:01:16.083-05:002011-10-25T14:01:16.083-05:00I always think of something else I want to add.
...I always think of something else I want to add. <br /><br />When I was comparing relative evils above, I was speaking in terms of potential harm to the person who holds the beliefs in question, and to a lesser extent to any potential harm to an impressionable listener. I realized that you are probably thinking in terms of harm to society. In that case, the question become much more difficult to Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-21738863032408708802011-10-25T13:49:45.347-05:002011-10-25T13:49:45.347-05:00You're right, Christ would not approve of raci...You're right, Christ would not approve of racism or "convert or die" methodology. Isn't it just as likely that this version of Christianity was the result of the Scandinavian way of thinking, rather than what the missionaries said? After all, the Vikings were known for ruthlessness. We'll probably never know for sure.<br /><br />And again, my point is a subtle one. The Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-48764028248563832022011-10-25T11:47:55.289-05:002011-10-25T11:47:55.289-05:00"you'd be better off being a misguided, i..."you'd be better off being a misguided, ignorant, racist christian than an otherwise perfect human being who's not a christian"<br /><br />How is it possible for a "misguided, ignorant, racist" person to truly follow Christ's teachings? I have always been under the impression that love and respect for your fellow man was central to Christ's philosophy. I think That's How Kids Diehttp://thatshowkidsdie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-61828693655942324792011-10-24T14:49:41.723-05:002011-10-24T14:49:41.723-05:00Thanks! I agree with a lot of what you've said...Thanks! I agree with a lot of what you've said, about anti-Christian lyrics being a tired cliche (I've mentioned that somewhere on this blog previously), about being wary of preachy lyrics (music is not going to convert anyone TO a religion any more than it's going to drive someone AWAY from a religion), and that the music is far more important than the message.<br /><br />Racism is Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-70397626845976622222011-10-24T14:24:54.982-05:002011-10-24T14:24:54.982-05:00I find all the anti-Christian rhetoric really bori...I find all the anti-Christian rhetoric really boring and a bit adolescent. It's a cliche and any shock value long drained away. I'm no fan of organised religion but I think there are more interesting things to explore in art.<br /><br />Conversely, I wouldn't discount a band that is Christian but I am a bit wary of preachy lyrics.<br /><br />Whether pro or anti Christian, if the band Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-29838905795910001002011-10-23T22:39:11.515-05:002011-10-23T22:39:11.515-05:00I want to expound on that last point a little. It ...I want to expound on that last point a little. It says more about the kind of people who want to put themselves in power than about the ideas they twist to their own ends. Clearly Christianity as taught by Christ (and also Paul) is a religion of love for one's fellow man. Anything else is not Christianity, but a perversion of the idea.Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-57806179919566930452011-10-23T22:36:13.742-05:002011-10-23T22:36:13.742-05:00Right, and that was the distinction I was making--...Right, and that was the distinction I was making--between being and labeling. Christianity isn't really a part of the establishment, and that was another point I was trying to make. The organized Church, yes. Christianity, no. How much overlap there is between the two is up for debate.<br /><br />I must call you out on the Scandinavians, though, because that's what all those pagan/Viking Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-22026308449644203502011-10-23T14:44:53.386-05:002011-10-23T14:44:53.386-05:00I think that most people see Christianity as a par...I think that most people see Christianity as a part of the establishment and this is why people choose to rebel against it. A brief scan of wikipedia finds a 2007 study where 78.4% of Americans identified themselves as Christian, whereas only 16.1% of Americans identified themselves as agnostic, atheist or otherwise non-religious. 54% of the world's population consider themselves adherents That's How Kids Diehttp://thatshowkidsdie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-91415386674574599012011-10-22T23:12:59.406-05:002011-10-22T23:12:59.406-05:00I got sloppy with here, so I should specify that I...I got sloppy with here, so I should specify that I meant:<br />- Why are there so many prominent Christians <i>in metal</i>?<br />- And why does <i>the anti-Christianity of metal</i> begin 20 years into metal's 40 year history?Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-91022747542380789812011-10-22T22:57:01.234-05:002011-10-22T22:57:01.234-05:00Their preconceptions about Christians, of course. ...Their preconceptions about Christians, of course. As I've mentioned before, it's odd that metalheads can (as a rule) find so many varying degrees of Satanism and racism/Nazism with infinite shades of gray, yet all Christianity is viewed as a monolithic caricature.<br /><br />I dispute your view of metal in general and its relationship to Christianity. Perhaps it's true for black metalFull Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-59679469831430713862011-10-21T17:30:45.133-05:002011-10-21T17:30:45.133-05:00what, exactly, are the preconceptions that need to...what, exactly, are the preconceptions that need to be bypassed? <br /><br />I'll assume you're referring to a supposed cognitive dissonance of seeing christians in metal? well, it's not at all surprising, as the history of the spread of christianity is one of them colonizing pre-established forms to suit their evangelicalizing/proselytizing needs. this is just a contemporary example alex chttp://avianarchitext.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-72352146362044161932011-10-21T16:12:42.617-05:002011-10-21T16:12:42.617-05:00Earlier today I blasted Eparistera Daimones. Righ...Earlier today I blasted Eparistera Daimones. Right now I'm blasting Saviour Machine.illuminatus917https://www.blogger.com/profile/10524185756897375292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-55053644490802811232011-10-21T10:58:55.151-05:002011-10-21T10:58:55.151-05:00According to my poll, a little more than a third o...According to my poll, a little more than a third of metalheads feel that way. For another third, I'm preaching to the choir, if you'll excuse the pun. For the other third--the intended audience for this post--I wonder if they can get past their preconceptions to get anything out of this. (Which is not to say that intelligent, considered disagreement isn't possible. It's just that Full Metal Attorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04818204892818121018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13079355.post-54571001043523111852011-10-21T10:37:37.715-05:002011-10-21T10:37:37.715-05:00I personally look at Christian lyrics in metal the...I personally look at Christian lyrics in metal the same way I look at everything else: if the music is good, the lyrics do not matter at all. I listen to some incredibly violent music, just look at last week's Slam Week. Slam is as violent as it comes in metal a lot of the time, but the lyrics do not bother me at all. Christian lyrics are the same way.Metallattorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05697604772912635416noreply@blogger.com